5 Dallas Officers Killed at Protest Against Police Shootings

Discussion in 'The Homeland' started by Vergennes, Jul 8, 2016.

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  1. Vergennes

    Vergennes Captain Staff Member Ret. Military International Mod

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  2. Technofox

    Technofox That Norwegian girl Staff Member Ret. Military Developer

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  3. Pathfinder

    Pathfinder Lieutenant Colonel

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    The racial tensions are very high in America, there were back to back shootings of innocent black males. These shootings were different from the previous ones where the officers had somewhat of a case for shooting the men but this time its completely different. I think we have the perfect atmosphere for the rebirth of the Black Panthers here in the US. Black unemployment is high, relations with the police are very bad, and the rise of Donald Trump and his supporters. A perfect storm.
     
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  4. Vergennes

    Vergennes Captain Staff Member Ret. Military International Mod

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    I am not going to criticize all the US police officers,as the majority do their job with the first task is to protect everyone whatever their race is and who are ready to give their lives for the public safety. Then there's a minority of US police officers that should never have been officers at the first place. I know that some officers might work with the paranoia of being shot,which is understandable because everyyear a lot of cops get shot and killed,and they don't want this to happen to them.
    But you have to look at the recent cases of police shootings. Read about Philando Castile's murder. And also the execution of Alton Sterling.
    -
    Look at Walter Scott's case. He didn't represent a threat to the officer,but fled at a turtle's speed,couldn't he chase him and put him on the ground instead of directly reaching his gun and shooting him ?


    -
    I am not justifying this shooting at all,and may they RIP,all the thought to the families of the affected one.
     
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  5. Parikrama

    Parikrama 2nd Lieutenant

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    The racial crimes are increasing a lot.. On top the two potential prez nominees Trump and CLinton are playing safe for the black voter appeasement.

    I think USA requires someone like Martin Luther King and Abraham Lincoln back..

    Every society has issues.. But violence seems to be a knee jerk reaction with trigger happy mania all over.. Its not even a combat zone or war zone.. its freaking normal homeland..

    after 9/11 its the highest casualty for the police forces.. they had to deploy SWAT team.. they took on SNIPERS.. sniper in urban combat!! Is this really happening?

    I think a way forward would be
    1. Try to bridge the gap between the races by building more confidence and addressing some key issues
    2. Need to understand USA is United states implying its a amalgamation of different races and culture who are given a equal right under their constitution.
    3. A bit more respect for the dark skinned ppl and who are called as "blacks"
    4. Need the police forces, law enforcement ppl and media to be a bit more emphatic to dark colored ppl concerns.
    5. Need control in gun culture.. its too many casualties without any substantiate reasoning..
    6. Key need is to revive economy with more job creation to make ppl feel a bit more secured and make them understand how to value lives...

    RIP for the ones who lost lives.. our thoughts for the families and all the ones who are affected..
     
  6. Technofox

    Technofox That Norwegian girl Staff Member Ret. Military Developer

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    I like the proposals, and some shouldn't be too difficult to implement, though this is the US were talking about the their political situation is anything close to reasonable. Others, like behavioral or cultural changes will take years, if they're ever enacted.

    Looking at them individually and I'd really appreciate the help of the Americans too @Pathfinder @AMDR @Strategist and others I forgot:D

    1. Try to bridge the gap between the races by building more confidence and addressing some key issues.

    This alone would help alleviate a number of situations, even like todays shooting incident, albeit confidence is fickle and eroded with only a single misstep, while taking years to establish and far longer to hold.

    Education and legislation are the two that constantly spout up when talking about addressing issues and building confidence. Are they realistic though? I don't see education as a means to cure ignorance of bigotry, rather I see exposure as the most appropriate means - a two way street of course. Both sides must expose and engage each other in each others values, culture, experiences and so on and so forth.

    You can legislate away such incidents either, just set guidelines and punishments. And even if legislation is enacted, we need to worry about it being too one sided to avoid disenfranchising the other party. Title IX legislation has been an example of well-meaning legislation designed to promote opportunities for minorities being viewed as discriminatory to non-minority parties.

    What specifically do you think would build more confidence and how do we address the key issues effectively, and what are those issues?

    2. Need to understand USA is United states implying its a amalgamation of different races and culture who are given a equal right under their constitution

    Far easier said then done unfortunately. The rights may be ascribed equally, thought there is also legislation enacted to protect certain peoples (again Title IX comes to mind as an un-equality), so it's not always equal goings and this can create resentment or angst.

    I completely agree with the spirit, though. But the implementation isn't always in agreement.

    3. A bit more respect for the dark skinned ppl and who are called as "blacks"

    Agreed, and this is were education can help. Once again though, it's a two way street.

    I neighboring Sweden we see the population and State being as respectful as I've been privileged to witness, and yet we don't see reciprocity from the other side as often as we'd expect or like.

    So for the US "Blacks" and "Non-Blacks" need to do so together, one side can't do everything themselves.

    4. Need the police forces, law enforcement ppl and media to be a bit more emphatic to dark colored ppl concerns.


    I don't really have a perspective here, as I'm not too familiar with how the police and media respond to the concerns of minorities, but I'd caution for a balanced approach, careful not to stray too close to either side.

    5. Need control in gun culture.. its too many casualties without any substantiate reasoning.

    I've heard all the arguments and rational for why gun control wont control violence, but I'm leaning towards the opposite now with a recent spat of high profile gun crimes in the US. Yes, there are other means to commit mass atrocities, but guns seem to be the most prevalent in use.

    I'd like to see an Australian gun buyback program like the 1996 one that brought in 650,000 firearms:

    [​IMG]

    But gun ownership in the US is different then say, gun ownership in Norway which also has a high number of guns. There's something about US culture that makes them less reticent to relinquish their firearms. I don't see the radical legislation and ownership laws changing in the US anytime soon.

    If not after Sandy Hook, then never.

    Here's a good article on the outcome of Australia's buyback program:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...stralia-banned-lots-of-guns-after-a-massacre/

    6. Key need is to revive economy with more job creation to make ppl feel a bit more secured and make them understand how to value lives.

    Another great point, another far easier to talk about then implement - especially on a personal level rather then a macro-economic scale. A 2-3% raise in economic output doesn't mean the man on the street is benefitting.

    Again though, I agree with the premise. Economic and personal stability is a contributing factor to violence levels, though well off people, as was shown in Bangladesh this past week, aren't immune to committing horrid acts either.

    ...

    Difficult topic though, but I appreciate you taking a stab at it.

    Definitely would like an American's perspective on each point and what could be done, implemented or legislated to effect them, either positively or negatively.
     
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  7. Technofox

    Technofox That Norwegian girl Staff Member Ret. Military Developer

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  8. Strategist

    Strategist Officer Candidate

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    I am going to take a shot here, but some items I won't get into in much detail because discussions of politics and race are fraught with danger for Americans, especially for Caucasian Americans, who care about healing the wounds (i.e. only those who are actually racist and don't care about being called racist are free to speak openly and directly about what they are thinking--thanks PC culture!) Also, it's unclear if I'm in the minority here, but I approach this from a center-right perspective, so look away if such views are anathema to anyone reading.

    Agreed, but before we even begin to discuss how to execute such change, we have to discuss if society is ready and willing to change. It is not.


    Agreed about Title IX. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and that has done far more harm than good. It's difficult to become a post-racial society when a certain political party demands that race be treated as a critical factor in education, employment, finance, etc. Race doesn't matter, except it does! We have to change the law to actually treat all American citizens the same way in order to start healing these wounds, because until all Americans are equal under the law, we can't address the problems of miscreants who violate the law in order to discriminate.

    That's why the change should be driven by economics, not politics. The best way for minorities to achieve equality is by making their markets attractive. The Irish used to be discriminated against until they created their own institutions (stores, banks, etc.) and parallel labor force (employed by these institutions, since they couldn't find employment elsewhere), and when it was shown they could compete and had spending power, barriers fell. The same with the Italians. The same with the Jews. As we have seen most recently, the same with Asians, and gradually, Latinos. Thus, this isn't a matter of color. It's a matter of approach, and I'm afraid the African-American community has had the wrong approach (force change through government instead of the market).

    For G-d's sake, we see Africa as a desirable market, and our MNCs employ Africans. Too many have focused on race, and too few on why this is a problem at home, but not abroad. This is an area where I won't elaborate, but I believe this can change, if employment and economic prosperity is the priority. Unfortunately, I don't think that is the highest priority right now.

    In an age where an African American is president, it's not appropriate to talk about limits due to skin color. The misguided point to race, but the clever examine life's choices instead. Ironically, it is the racialist Left and the racist Right that are united in preventing this kind of examination that will enable the African American community to achieve the equality and prosperity it deserves.

    Completely agree, here. I understand why the CRA was implemented. But should it continue forever, even if it were working? And it's not even working, so why shouldn't we try a different approach? Certain groups would have us believe that as non-whites, Indians could never achieve success and will be oppressed by default. Instead, Indian Americans in particular, but Asian Americans in general, are essentially our most successful sub-group. As already mentioned, Obama is president, and myriad African Americans have been CEOs of Fortune 500 companies.

    Let's get past skin color. Race is not the problem when it comes to economic success, or even political success. But it is a problem when it comes to law enforcement. Doesn't that say it all? The market has already moves to a post-racial society, but government has not--by choice. Until we legislate actual equality, all the legal protections in the world will fail in achieving actual equality.

    I agree, but I want to separate language from how people are treated. Language and norms evolve, and for a middle-aged guy like me, "Black" was never an offensive adjective (not intended to be offensive, and not received as offensive). But the racial grievance industry invents these issues to continually renew the sense of victimhood and preserve the status quo. Let me mention that one of the primary advocacy groups for African Americans still sees fit to call itself the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ("colored" goes in and out of fashion as an insult, determined by somebody), and a major organization that works towards providing a college education for African Americans sees fit to call itself the United Negro College Fund. Language is not the problem here.

    Let's focus instead on the main point that you and @Parikrama brought up, which is actually treating minorities like equals. Agreed. And the most basic right of every citizen is life. It's appalling to see what is happening to this country, where minorities don't feel safe, even (or especially) from the police. It's grotesque, and we need to do something about it, starting with breaking the unions so we can punish bad cops instead of running into the "blue wall of silence." Let's start incrementally by making the radical change whereby a police officer who shoots an unarmed man who poses no danger is no longer allowed to carry a gun. We can work on the even more radical change of firing that cop after that. And maybe, someday, we can hope to see those cops prosecuted as the criminals they are, but that day is far away so long as the unions exist to protect these miscreants, and extort the politicians to protect them. Police should not only be held to a higher standard, but to the highest standard. Instead, we get too many who believe that they are issues a license to kill along with their firearm, and the blue wall of silence vindicates that belief.

    Everyone deserves better, but it's the minorities who bear the brunt of these psychotic policemen. We can do better, and we need to do better by screening these would-be criminals before they achieve the status and protection of a police officer.

    Years ago, I would have said that the African American community can make this happen by not treating cops as the enemy, but now I wonder if they were right to do so all along. It's so hard to see these events transpire, and then cynically predict that none of these cops will be fired, let alone go to jail.

    We know there's a problem when the military knows that the way to pacify an insurgency is to patrol the neighborhoods, develop relations with the community and built rapport so that the community will trust them enough to pass intelligence and help the military help themselves; but our militarized police forces only know how to go in guns blazing. There is a structural problem here that needs to be fixed, but I don't know how to fix it. I am certain that there are some model communities out there from whom we can learn, but there has to be a desire to change the culture. There's no such desire.

    That said, there are steps that the African American community can take for its own sake, but any discussion of that nature sounds like victim-blaming, so pass.

    I'm trying to be open-minded here, in that some screening measures (criminal record, psychosis, etc.) are warranted, but the wholesale banning of guns must never happen, can never happen and will never happen. The Second Amendment is a fundamental right granted by the constitution, and an attempt by well-meaning would-be tyrants to strip law-abiding Americans of that right will probably cause something of an uprising. Hijacking planes to knock down buildings, bombs, knives, even running down people with cars--sociopaths will always find a way, even if the guns magically disappeared. The only difference is that law-abiding citizens will be utterly defenseless in the face of violence. Criminals will always have access to guns, especially given our porous borders. Confiscating and outlawing guns will only punish those who need protection, not those who need punishment.

    By the way, I say this as someone who has never owned a gun, doesn't personally know anyone who owns a gun, and lives behind the Iron Curtain in a state that makes it nearly impossible to get a gun license. But rights that are taken away are never restored, and I will not surrender that right lightly.


    As part of the discussion on the racial divide in America, I agree that yes, we need more employment in general, and especially more employment for minorities. It's always been a question of how to do that, and with globalization and increasing automation, that's going to become an increasingly intractable problem. And it may ameliorate the racial divide, but it cannot heal the racial divide.

    Two things need to happen to fix these problems in the long term.

    The first is fixing the policing system, which is failing the African-American community, and the thin end of the wedge that will further cleave society. I have had a few bad experiences with cops abusing their power, so I've had a hint of it, but the events of the last few months and days have left me shaken. I don't know what is ailing our nation's police forces, but the politicians better fix it before there's an explosion an order of magnitude worse than what we've seen in Dallas. When people don't believe the system is protecting them, or even worse, believe that the system is there to oppress them, they will attack the symbols of the system. What symbol is closer than the enforcers of the law, the police?

    The second thing is a cultural change. I've already mentioned the political component above, but I don't want to get too political to avoid steering this thread in a direction that would upset some people. I will summarize by saying we've tried the Left's way for decades, and it has been a miserable failure. Let's try something else. Then there's a cultural change that needs to happen in the African-American community, but this is not the time for that discussion.
     
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  9. Spectre

    Spectre 2nd Lieutenant

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    1. Education - Biggest thing US could do is to overhaul its public education system which is a mess with crumbling infrastructure, perils of standardized testing and disinterested teachers. Blacks being relatively poor get the short end of the stick and it is here they take the first step towards criminal life.

    2. Judicial System - Blacks are awarded longer sentences for a similar crime as well as there larger no of blacks in prison. Again there cant be two different standards. Punishments for consumption and possession of crack used mostly by Blacks is more than that of cocaine. There are many such discrepancies which need to be done away with Judicial System uniformly implemented.

    3. Drugs - Leading from the second point, Drugs are the major cause of incarceration in black communities and negative perception of Blacks among law enforcements and whites. Time has come to accept that war on drugs has failed. The supply is never gonna stop - so you tackle it in two ways -

    On one end you can legalize marijuana so that recreational users are exempted from conviction and do not try harder stuff out of curiosity. Legal avenue for drugs in a way can cut down on illegal ones due to cannibalization.

    On the enforcement end - one needs to realize that drug money is big, As long as the monetary angle exists you aint gonna stop supply. So you do what you can do to cut down demand. So more reform, rehabilitation and community policy - Less WAR.

    Thanks
     
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  10. Pathfinder

    Pathfinder Lieutenant Colonel

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    Its a complicated issue from all aspects but I think one thing that needs to be mentioned is that in the US we still see race as an identifying factor for a human being. @Strategist played it out very well, we try to self divide ourselves and self label ourselves then complain that people split us up based on race. What kind of logic is that? I think this is one of the problems but also there is a cultural and housing aspect to this problem. Places where whites and blacks live are often very segregated. So whites don't live in black neighborhoods and blacks don't live in white neighborhoods. This is a result of our history of racial segregation but it is voluntarily continuing today. Even when whites and blacks go to work they split up in the rec room. So here we self segregate.

    I think a lot of the police departments may also have some racist tendencies simply because of where they work throughout the day which seems to be mostly black neighborhoods for various reasons. It can be very easy for a cop to say "Why is is always these people?". And of course the image we have imprinted in our heads about how young black males are dangerous because they rob people, do drugs etc. doesn't help make police officers less racist. It has already been discussed what the police departments can do but can the African American community do something to fix their overall image and reputation in the US?

    Its not only whites that have certain views and stereotypes about African Americans but so do other minorities and foreigners. African Americans know first hand the problems in their community, whether it be gang violence, educational problems, or family problems. These are issues that can only be solved by African Americans, not by democrats running the federal government.


    @Technofox

    A lot of people ain't gonna be happy with your proposition, I cam across the below video a few years ago and I think it spells out what could happen here in America very clearly if some kind of gun confiscation started:



    Honestly if some kind of gun confiscation started I wouldn't be surprised if it led to civil war because you are taking away someones property (expensive property) and one of their rights (a right people see as their most important). Thats how the Civil War started back in the mid 1800's.
     
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