Israel considering backing out of its F-35 buy

Discussion in 'F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program' started by Vergennes, Mar 2, 2016.

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  1. Vergennes

    Vergennes Captain Staff Member Ret. Military International Mod

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    @Falcon
    -
    [​IMG]

    via IsraelNationalNews.com
    A welcome decision made back in 2008 to purchase U.S.-made Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) jets no longer appears very attractive in 2016 – and Israel is considering backtracking on it.

    So say Israeli government sources quoted by Middle East Newsline (MENL).

    For one thing, the much-touted JSF has some inherent flaws, such as inadequate range, weapons payload and stealth capability. In addition, the Americans refuse to share the JSF source code with Israel. Israel would not be able to modify the platform to fit its needs, and would have to send damaged engines to Turkey or the U.S. for repairs.

    According to the sources, some Israeli Cabinet members say the state-of-the-art version of the F-35 jet is outright "flawed." Israel could find itself "increasingly dependent" on a fighter-jet that has been rejected by most NATO air forces, the sources say.

    Until the JSF reaches its full potential, a highly-placed source said, "we will have dozens of very expensive aircraft with limited capabilities."Do you still believe the Deputy Commandant for Aviation when he says that the F-35 is fully combat capable right now? Do you still think that the USMC has a squadron of airplanes ready to go to war and win?

    The F-35 isn't ready and if all the initiatives (like the mini-missiles to replace the AIM-120) are any indication, it never will be.

    Source -----------> http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.fr/2016/02/israel-considering-backing-out-of-its-f.html
     
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  2. Falcon

    Falcon Major Staff Member Social Media Team

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    "The source code is "kind of the holy grail" for this, controlling everything from weapons integration to radar to flight dynamics, said Joel Johnson of TEAL Group, an aerospace consultancy in Fairfax, Virginia.

    No other country is getting the so-called source code, the key to the plane's electronic brains, Jon Schreiber, who heads the program's international affairs, told Reuters in an interview Monday."

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-lockheed-fighter-exclusive-idUSTRE5AO01F20091125

    Israel likes to integrate its own weapons and systems onto everything, unfortunately the F-35 may inhibit that to some extent in the short to medium term. Israel has a lot of F-16's to replace and most likely this will be done with the F-35 overtime. If however we do not bend on the source codes all of our angry customers could threaten to cut orders or cancel them completely and go for some other fighter. I think the Turks have already done this, it looks like they are only getting the F-35 as a stop gap solution and will replace their F-16's with an indigenous fighter. The Israel's made the Kifr back in the 70's, I am sure that if the situation became desperate they could make their own fighter as a long term solution or get licensed production Eurofighters.
     
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  3. T-123456

    T-123456 Captain Staff Member International Mod

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    The F-35 was never intended to replace the F-16s of the Turkish Air Force,it will replace the almost obsolete F-4s of the Turkish Air Force.
    100 F-35A for the Air Force and probably 16/20 F-35B for the Turkish Navy(LPD/LHD).
     
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  4. Technofox

    Technofox That Norwegian girl Staff Member Ret. Military Developer

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    It will replace our 52 F-16s though, and our test pilot, Major Morten Hanche, has had nothing but good things to say about the F-35.

    ...

    Norwegian F-35 Pilot Counters Controversial ‘Dogfighting’ Report

    For the first time since a controversial report detailing how the F-35 performs in a dogfight emerged last summer, an F-35 pilot gave an in-depth analysis of his experience flying the jet in a close-range battle scenario.

    Norwegian Air Force Maj. Morten “Dolby” Hanche, the first Norwegian to fly the F-35, analyzed the jet’s performance in a dogfight in a March 1 blog post published on Norway’s Ministry of Defense website.

    Although Hanche never mentions the 2015 report, “F-35A High Angle of Attack Operational Maneuvers" and revealed last summer by blogger David Axe on WarisBoring.com, he counters many of the anonymous author’s claims.

    The 2015 report criticized the F-35’s lack of power and maneuverability compared to the F-16 during high angle of attack exercises. The F-35 “was at a distinct energy disadvantage in a turning fight,” the author wrote, also noting that “pitch rates were too slow to prosecute or deny weapons.”

    In contrast, Hanche wrote the F-35 is capable of a significantly higher angle of attack than the F-16, providing the pilot greater authority to point the nose of the airplane wherever he wants.

    “This improved ability to point at my opponent enables me to deliver weapons earlier than I am used to with the F-16, it forces my opponent to react even more defensively, and it gives me the ability to reduce the airspeed quicker than in the F-16,” wrote Hanche, a US Navy test pilot school graduate with 2,200 flight hours in Lockheed Martin’s F-16.

    Hanche now serves as an instructor and the assistant weapons officer with the 62nd fighter squadron at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona.

    In the defensive role, the pilot can “whip” the F-35 around while simultaneously slowing down, Hanche wrote. The plane can actually slow down more quickly than a driver is able to emergency brake a car.

    At its maximum angle of attack, the F-35 reacts more quickly to the pilot’s “pedal inputs,” which command the nose of the plane from side to side, than does the F-16, according to Hanche.

    “This gives me an alternate way of pointing the airplane where I need it to, in order to threaten an opponent,” Hanche wrote. “This ‘pedal turn’ yields an impressive turn rate, even at low airspeeds. In a defensive situation, the ‘pedal turn’ provides me the ability to rapidly neutralize a situation, or perhaps even reverse the roles entirely.”

    Hanche did have several critiques of the F-35’s performance, including a shaking or “buffeting” at high g-loadings and high angles of attack. In comparison, the F-16 hardly shakes at all, he noted. This buffeting has made it difficult for several F-35 pilots to read the information displayed on the heads-up display. However, Hanche has not found this to be an issue while using the third-generation helmet.

    Both Hanche and the anonymous author of the 2015 report agreed the headrest makes it more difficult to see behind the aircraft. Hanche wrote he found initially the F-35’s cockpit limited his visibility compared with the F-16.

    “The cockpit view from the F-16 was good, better than in any other fighter I have flown. I could turn around and look at the opposite wingtip; turn to the right, look over the back of the airplane and see the left wingtip,” Hanche wrote. “That´s not quite possible in the F-35, because the headrest blocks some of the view.”

    But Hanche was able to improve his visibility by moving forward in his seat and leaning slightly sideways, before turning his head and looking backwards. This enabled him to see around the sides of the seat.

    Hanche stressed that he was still able to maintain visual contact with his opponent during aggressive maneuvering, and the cockpit’s visual limitation is not “a genuine problem with the F-35.”

    "For now my conclusion is that this is an airplane that allows me to be more forward and aggressive than I could ever be in an F-16," Hanche wrote. "So how does the F-35 behave in a dogfight? ... To sum it up, my experience so far is that the F-35 makes it easier for me to maintain the offensive role, and it provides me more opportunities to effectively employ weapons at my opponent."

    ...

    2,000 hours in the F-16, I'll trust his word in regards to the F-35's performance compared to the F-16.

    The source codes may be a problem for Turkey or Israel, not for us considering our NSM and JSM are already integrated into the f-35 coding. We made sure of that as part of our deal to purchase the F-35. We'd only commit to buying the aircraft after our weapons were integrated an a drag chute installed on our aircraft, for use on icy or short runways.

    Going from this:

    [​IMG]

    To this (Maj. Hanche on the left, Chief of the Air Force staff Per Egil Rygg on the right):

    [​IMG]

    Is going to be a great boon for our air force, with or without source codes. Nice try @Gabriel92 but we aren't buying the Rafale. not matter what you say about the F-35's shortcomings:p.

    Turkey and Israel may have future concerns about weapon integration, though SOM is already integrated, if that's a concern they can leverage other options.

    Israel would be stupid to withdraw though, their current batch of aircraft is getting a bit old and the US isn't really too keen on support further upgrades, like the F-15 Silent Eagle at this point. Israel's best bet for a 5th gen aircraft is the F-35.

    Oh well, their loss. Think the Philippines is interested in ex-Norwegian F-16s?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  5. Atilla

    Atilla Major

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    F-4 was not meant to be a good dog fighter, earlier versions didn't have a gun. Designers thought that they could rely on BVR but they were wrong. I am not saying the F-35 is not good at dog fighting but I think our Air Force doesn't fully trust it. We could have bought 200+ F-35's to replace our F-16 and 100 TF-x to replace F-4.

    We will see when our pilots test it.
     
  6. T-123456

    T-123456 Captain Staff Member International Mod

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    You dont need the source codes,you are Vikings.;)
    Just like the Israëli's,we want to integrate our indigenous systems on the F-35,lets say its a ''trust'' issue,im sure you understand.
    We need an Air superiority fighter to replace the F-16s,think of our neighbourhood,with all the Flankers and derivatives,soon to be bought by our ''friendly'' neighbours.
    The F-35 has BVR but so does the Flanker family and im not sure how the F-35 is going to beat the su-35 in a dog fight.
    The F-16s will be in our inventory for at least another 10 to 15 years.
    There is a rumour that there will be a new order of 8 or more F-35s at the next meeting of the SSIK(Turkish Defence Procurement Agency),the meeting should be held on the 15th of February but due to ongoing operations against the PKK in the country and the situation in Syria it was postponed until mid march.
     
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  7. Vergennes

    Vergennes Captain Staff Member Ret. Military International Mod

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    @Technofox In fact,because the Europeans prefered to cooperate with those Americans (Pressures you tell me?) on an 5th gen fighter instead of an European solution,I'm cheerleading every problems this aircraft has,and happy that it is destroying their entire defence budgets. Well I don't hide it,I like it.

    You'll end up like the Dutch.... with less and an entire budget destroyed. :0-:



    http://www.newsinenglish.no/2016/01/19/economic-worries-threaten-defense/
     
  8. Technofox

    Technofox That Norwegian girl Staff Member Ret. Military Developer

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    Fair enough, but European defense projects have a noted history of falling to political bickering and changing defense goals. Some, like the Typhoon worked, most don't. The Americans are needed because of NATO standards and vast capital, which isn't something Europe has a lot of these days with a sub-1% growth rate and an average defense budget less then what I spend on utilities.

    But in our case, it's not that we favor American solutions over European cooperation, typically we cooperate with both the Americans and Sweden however - most of our defense items are collaborations between the three nations, rather it's that we were contracted to support the F-35 program and thus don't have a reason no to buy it at this point.

    True, true, any good Viking would just steal the codes when needed. That said, we don't need the codes because we already have them. We built the F-35s combat management system and many of its other critical avionics, along with the aircraft's skin, which allows us an good amount of knowledge about its baked-in stealth formula. We don't need them because we already have them.

    Something both of the F-35's market competitors would do too. At a cost of 100 Million USD per plane, neither the Rafale nor Typhoon can brag about cost.., well, maybe they can brag about being too costly.

    The difference between the Typhoon and Rafale versus the F-35 is that one will enter full-rate production, which will lower its price, and the other two wont. They'll stay prohibitally expensive.

    The F-35 wont do anything kind to our budget, but neither will its competitors. Next you'll tell me to save costs we should buy Chinese:eek:.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Atilla

    Atilla Major

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    The article says some Israel cabinet members, this does not mean "Israel". After I read the full Norway Test Pilot article I feel more confident about the F-35, also costs will be lower when more people buy. I think our Air Force is using it to replace the F4 because it is more expensive to operate than the F-16, we will not waste money flying around F-35's in the Aegean and at the Syria border. F-35 will be used for strike missions and maybe to react against the Future Iranian air force that will be supplied with advanced Russian air superiority fighters.
     
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  10. AMDR

    AMDR Captain Staff Member Administrator

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    Once the F-35 gets a helmet-cued LOAL "over-the-shoulder" dog-fighting missile like the ASRAAM (internal carriage) I think the whole "can't dogfight" argument will go away pretty quickly and maybe the Europeans and others will slowly warm up to the F-35. Maybe.
    f-35-lightning-ii-weapons-carriage.jpg

    Why am I going to do crazy maneuvers if i can have my cued missiles do them for me?
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
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