MMRCA - Rafale and beyond

Discussion in 'Indian Defense Forum' started by surya kiran, Jul 18, 2016.

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  1. surya kiran

    surya kiran 2nd Lieutenant

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    For updates on the Rafale project. Guessing this thread will be the favourite of @Parikrama
     
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  2. Parikrama

    Parikrama 2nd Lieutenant

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    First comment in as quickly the thread started..

    Will initiate the roller coaster ride for all..

    It's going to be a thriller..

    Who will be the champion of the champions.

    mother of all deals..

    Contenders
    1. France Dassault Rafale
    2. USA Lockheed Martin F16 block 70/72 or even a new block say 80
    3. USA Boeing F18 ASH/SH
    4 Sweden SAAB Gripen NG

    fan favourites
    1. Russian Mig 35
    2. Euro EF Typhoon

    Fanboy favourite
    1. USA Lockheed Martin F35
    2. USA Boeing F18 Growlers

    Fantasy favourite
    1. USA Lockheed Martin F22 E or export

    Will post all the latest new and old stories and take you all in mind numbing ride..

    Now with Make In India plans and addition of orders from IAF and IN, who is going to get the most..

    All the action .. this season and many more season to follow..

    Coming soon...
     
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  3. Technofox

    Technofox That Norwegian girl Staff Member Ret. Military Developer

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    What are the two tenders I keep seeing? One is the MMCRA, for which the Rafale is said to be close to capturing:

    [​IMG]

    But is there another tender ongoing in parallel to the MMCRA?
     
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  4. Parikrama

    Parikrama 2nd Lieutenant

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    Well original MMRCA is canceled

    There are two parts to the deal
    Rafale is suppose to be having off the shelf purchase plus a manufacturing line in India under Make In India program for a much larger order. This is almost certain and done part to be announced soon.

    The second is the scope of another jet manufacturing line under Make in India to address the rapid declining numbers and need of replacement within a short time frame. This has contenders like F16, F18 and Gripen.
    Besides the big names, there is a concept called Light Stealth Aircraft which is also on table for approval and can potential outsmart LM, Boeing and Saab. This LSA concept is by an Ex Indian Navy Sea Harrier pilot who had presented this to MOD. He is present in another forum and has detailed it with limited but good information for public. He had also tied up Indian Pvt sector plus Israel who is interested to buy 100+ orders.

    Interestingly LSA single engine option is EJ230 but design flexibility allows it to be twin engine version as well. the maker wants to use Rafale offset investments into Kaveri Engine program and use HTFE35 as twin engine usage.

    In his words, If Safran deal for Kaveri works out there is 75% chance LSA will be approved and it will be replace LCA Mk2 program.

    In simple words indigenous LSA as second Make in India line can outsmart the global majors like LM, Boeing and Saab.
     
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  5. Parikrama

    Parikrama 2nd Lieutenant

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  6. Technofox

    Technofox That Norwegian girl Staff Member Ret. Military Developer

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    Is this tender also soliciting for a naval fighter or strike aircraft like Rafale M?

    I'm not as big of a hater of the LCA as most you'll find, but it's a bit under gunned and undersized for carrier ops.

    [​IMG]

    I look at it as a less utilitarian, but more advanced and modern Harrier (obviously without the VTOL, but both are light fighter/strike aircraft), though those quad-packed bombs look nice|Happy|. So is any other aircraft being looked at to supplement the MiG-29? Is this where the Make in India F-18 would fit into the equation as the naval supplement to Rafale? Gripen too?

    The F-16 looks like the odd man out if so.

    I made the mistake of popping over to PDF and checking to see if anything has been posted about the LSA... wow!

    Oh, that's not a positive wow, by the way, though I'm not grumpy with you for bringing it to my attention:). It's a, "wow those specs are unrealistic". 8 internal bays, a range that takes it deep into China and back to bases deep within India, and only on a single engine for an aircraft barely larger then the LCA... forgive me if I don't believe what's being posted about it over at PDF.

    Anything concretely known about this proposed aircraft, or am I going to have to trust PDF's Randomradio, who I don't trust at all (he's not as knowledgeable as he seems and comes across as the Indian version of Viper0011 - you know, a know-it-all type that asks you to believe him rather then provide sources to support his claims and speaks of inside or non-public info too much) and who's been posting the most on the LSA?

    Anyway, anything more about this proposed aircraft? Like the specs? Because I don't believe the ones I'm seeing at all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
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  7. Parikrama

    Parikrama 2nd Lieutenant

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    Well the second line is not the navalised version. Idnian Navy atm is having eyes glued only for Rafale M. So for carrier ops it will be Rafale M only unless USA can break it up and get either F18 or F35 there. But a point to note is Indian Navy is a big proponent of local production and cost savings. So whomsoever gets a proper twin engined jet line under Make in India and is acceptable to both IAF and IN will see the IN order for carrier ops as well as future shore based squads.

    For LSA, i am giving the link here
    http://indiandefence.com/threads/light-stealth-aircraft.55805/

    The maker is Vstol. @Gessler who is mod in that forum also knows him.
    Oh dont go by PDF, as its a bit adverse to any new stuff. If it was suppose in Chinese section with say the same project, you would see lots of leaked stuff and the online keyboard warriors chest thumbing it as next biggest thing but thats their way of doing it..

    To me its a bit too early but lets see .. The maker has to walk the talk. if approval is given. but then I am very interested from industry perspective. Can we see with such projects a era where say few private sector companies prop in India who will desgn and build jets and may become the future Northrop Grummans, Lockheed Martins and Boeings type of major player in india. Its bcz as of now other than HAL we dont have any major at all. Tata does lots of work under offsets for USA products but again not anyone who can be directly a competitor to HAL and with similar kind of experience.

    So I am interested from MIC perspective that can this project once funded be the seed for future own aircraft design and manufacturing.
     
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  8. Technofox

    Technofox That Norwegian girl Staff Member Ret. Military Developer

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    I went over the thread and I think I'll stop asking questions about this proposed LSA.

    I don't believe or trust a word anyone in that thread says about it. It seems too unrealistic, too optimistic and too unlikely.

    But if something concrete actually happens with it, let me know. I'm interested, but what I'm seeing about it I don't believe.
     
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  9. Spectre

    Spectre 2nd Lieutenant

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    On the head, Nail you have hit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2016
  10. Parikrama

    Parikrama 2nd Lieutenant

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    Dassault cuts Falcon jet delivery forecast as first-half profit falls
    PARIS | BY TIM HEPHER AND CYRIL ALTMEYER
    ) cut its delivery forecast for Falcon business jets by 17 percent after posting lower first-half operating income and revenue on Thursday, hit by a price battle in the economically sensitive business jet market.

    The family-controlled maker of business jets and Rafale warplanes said it would deliver 50 Falcon jets in 2016, down from a previous target of 60, and 55 deliveries in 2015.

    Chief Executive Eric Trappier said the first half had been marked by economic and geopolitical uncertainty, including the decision by UK voters to leave the European Union, prompting some buyers to defer taking decisions on purchasing luxury jets.

    "There is strong pressure on prices across the whole range," he told a news conference, adding that Canadian rival Bombardier was "certainly the most aggressive in cutting prices."

    A spokesman for Bombardier (BBDb.TO) responded, "We are in a very competitive market right now. We don’t believe any single (manufacturer) is impacted any more than another, and all are facing the same pressures."

    Trappier also said ample availability of second-hand planes was piling pressure on prices.

    Dassault Aviation's first-half operating profit fell to 125 million euros($137.66 million) from 144 million as revenue slipped to 1.662 billion euros from 1.675 billion.

    The French company slowed down R&D spending.

    Analysts were on average expecting stable operating profit of 143 million euros on sales of 1.51 billion.

    Weakening or sluggish economies around the globe are taking a toll on business jet sales, forestalling an incipient recovery that had raised the hopes of planemakers last year.

    "We are getting ready for low levels for some time ... in terms of production," Trappier said.

    Falcon revenues fell to 853 million euros from 919 million as Dassault delivered 15 jets, three fewer than the first half of last year. New orders for the jets fell to 22 from 25.

    Dassault said it expects to deliver its first Falcon 8X version in the fourth quarter as planned.

    The Falcon 5X has already been pushed back to 2020 from 2017 due to problems in developing the Silvercrest engine at France's Safran (SAF.PA) and Trappier said Dassault was now in talks to receive penalty payments

    The company reaffirmed its full-year revenues were expected to fall in 2016, compared with 2015, which had been boosted by a Mirage 2000 fighter modernization project in India.

    ($1 = 0.9080 euros)

    On the defense business, Trappier said Dassault had concluded detailed discussions over the sale of 36 combat jets to India and was waiting for a final Indian decision.

    He also said Dassault is responding to a new request for information from Canada for a possible fighter purchase but that it remains unclear whether Ottawa is ready to buy non-U.S. jets.

    He took a swipe at the Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) F-35 fighter previously chosen by Canada, which staged its first major international appearance at air shows in Britain last week.

    "It may not be the airplane for them," he said, adding that the displays, while popular with UK aviations fans, had demonstrated a lack of maneuverability needed for air defense.

    U.S. officials say the F-35 is as maneuverable and capable as most current jets, despite some studies that showed a gap. But they argue the jet will probably never see air-to-air combat because of its superior radar and stealthy coatings which allow it to see enemy jets long before they could be engaged.



    (Additional reporting by Andrea Shalal. Editing by Jane Merriman, Susan Thomas and Alexandra Hudson)
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-dassault-avi-results-idUKKCN1012HZ


    +++
    On the defense business, Trappier said Dassault had concluded detailed discussions over the sale of 36 combat jets to India and was waiting for a final Indian decision.
    +++

    ++
    I said that .. is nt it?
    Now you know DM MP was resisiting signing for the sake of differing payments to later dates,,

    From April end onwards this game is ON
    Right when in Jan PM NaMo and Prez Hollande met the timeline was 4 weeks converted to months and from that time onwards its our own side which is dragging it ... Unfortunately BJP twitter announcing PM NaMo and crediting him for rafale only created more issues,,

    Its good that French side is patient enough.. and yes of course in the end its we whose making a mockery of prolonging an impending signature
    ++
     
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